Amardeep Kahlon interview: Selected quotes

So education was a high priority. They always stressed education. You know, it was interesting. They never stressed grades, but they stressed education. It was never like, “You have to be at the top of your class. You have to be ranked number one.” But, “You have to get an education.”

So education was always emphasized. Values were always emphasized. In fact, my father used to always say that, “Better than telling the truth is truthful living.” And so that was very highly emphasized in my family.

[W]hen I moved to the US one of the pieces of advice my mother gave me was, “Make sure you have a job. Make sure you are always independent all your life”. She said, “If you are earning, nobody can abuse you.” So, and when she said “nobody,” she didn’t just mean spouse, she meant anybody in the world.

You know, there was one teacher. At that time we hated her, you know, because she was Attila the Hun. But — in fact I’m friends with her ’til today. She was amazing, just amazing. She was in my school. […] She was very strict. But one of the things she did was: she never let up on us. It was her way or the highway. But what that did in us was … that inspired us in a strange way. She has — even ’til today — she has students whom she taught who just are fans of hers and they want to still keep in touch with her.

[W]hen I went on into college, I was a member of the debate club. I would often go back to her and seek guidance from her on how to go for my next tournament. What to do at my next tournament. Also, she taught us ways, like, “Hold your chin up.” “Put your shoulders back.” “Stick your chest out.” “That’s how you stand when you are speaking.” Which was actually very unusual for India, because most schools at that time were telling girls to be submissive. You know, a girl didn’t stand with her chest sticking out. But she was very unusual. Very unusual. And very inspiring. And even still today, when I talk to her, I look at the posts she puts on Facebook, she’s just full of inspiration.

[W]hen I’m talking about debate, I’m talking about I was this fancy public speaker. All through my life, even when I was shining in these debates, at the back of my head, there was this huge Imposter Syndrome that has never left me ’til today. It’s like, you know, “I’m not worthy of this.” “Pretty soon I’m going to fall on my face.” I never did fall on my face, but I always felt like I was going to.

The only jobs available there were in computing. So I said, “OK.” I went to the university, Binghamton University, and I asked them, I said, “So what are my options for studying?” They said, “Well, you can do an MBA or you can do a Master’s in computer science.” I said, “Oh! But I don’t have a bachelor’s.” And they said, “You don’t need a bachelor’s. You can do a Master’s.” And this was 1984. Of course today that same university would laugh at me if I came in with a degree in journalism and said I want to do a Master’s in computer science. So I did. I did a Master’s in computer science. The first two courses I took were disastrous. I got an incomplete in one and I failed one. The reason was not because I wasn’t good enough at it, but because the US education system was so different from the Indian one that I just dropped the ball completely. So now what to do? Should I continue in computer science or should I move somewhere else? I said, “Nope, I’m just going to continue.” So I got a degree in computer science.

in the Indian system the way the professor interacted with the students was very different. It was a one-way communication from professor to student. You never questioned the professor. You know, even if they stood up there and said, “The world was created one million years ago” and you knew that was wrong, you never questioned the professor. And of course, it’s changed now; I’m talking about thirty years ago. That was different. The other thing that was different was that here {in the US} we had assignments that were due and nobody was going to remind you that this was due. Over there it was … you were reminded every second. It was … I thought the American system was just so much better. Just so much better. Because it allowed you to explore. In India I would have never been allowed to do a Master’s in computer science. In India I would have never been admitted to a Ph.D. program at the age of 45. But I was able to do all that here {in the United States}. I was able to explore.

There was a programming class. We were about … how many students were in that class? It was a huge lecture hall and it was full. And I still remember the professor walked in and she looks at us and she says, “Look to your left; look to your right. Only 25% of you will be left in the class at the end of the class.” And I said, “OK. So I’m one of the 75%.” But I learned a lot in that class and I made an A in the class. And that was very meaningful for me, because hearing that sentence at the beginning of the class — that “only 25% of you will be left” — and then going on to make an A in the class sort of reinforced to me that I was on the right path.

I played around with the idea and at that time things didn’t seem to be going well in my life and I don’t want to really discuss that. But it was a very low point in my life and I thought, “Something has to change. Either something has to change or I am going to end up taking my own life.” And … but I decided that I was going to change my life and I was going to go get that Ph.D. I had so wanted all these years.

I went ahead and took the GRE. Just walked off the street and took the GRE. And … and they said that they would be looking at the writing portion of the GRE very closely and seeing what score I got. And that was just when the GRE had just started the writing portion. Well, the prompt I got was, “Without traditions cultures only exist, they cease to thrive.” I mean, you’re telling an Indian about traditions, about cultures. I just wrote about my wedding. I wrote about holi {a Hindu celebration} in India. I wrote about all these things in India. I made a very … I think I made a five-and-a-half out of six on the writing portion.

I took one class to begin with. I went into the first class thinking the same way I’m going into this new job. Thinking, “I’m going to go to the first class. I’m going to sit there. I’m not going to understand a thing. And, of course, I’m going to fail the class. There is no other possible outcome of this.” Well, I made an A in the class. Then for the next three semesters, I took one class each. I was too scared to attempt more than one. But then I got myself into it full-time. I became … actually I became very involved with the department. I became the coordinator while working full-time, while raising two kids, and also rushing off to India every six months to look after my parents. I became the coordinator of the student professional association and just was very involved in the department. I was a TA. Did all kinds of things. Made lasting relationships over there.

It’s been an amazing, amazing experience for me. It has been the best experience of my life. If I had to live my life over again, I would not change a thing about it. And I think it helped give meaning to my life, which was already there, but I just wasn’t able to see it. You know, because I was so stuck in the rut of going to work, teaching, learning new technologies all the time, which was … which put a lot of pressure on me. Raising kids. Looking after a family. This gave me a meaning to my life.

And he has been the most amazing mentor ever. He has encouraged me when I needed encouraging. He has dared me to explore new things. When I said, “No, I can’t do it,” he said, “Ah, you got this.” He would always make it sound so easy. Even when I had doubts about the whole process, he would make it sound good. And he was one of those people who I felt that I could call at any time, that I could … I could seek his guidance at any time. And he always referred to me as being very dedicated, very smart. And he always gave me his opinion, not just for the sake of giving an opinion, or not just because he was … but because he truly had my interest at heart.

[L]et’s talk about the dissertation topic itself. I was … I worked with the Computing Educators Oral History Project and I was committed to doing my dissertation on women in computing. That was something that I wanted to do. I was still trying to figure out what angle I would do, you know, instead of just doing the paucity of women in computing — everybody knew that. So what was the angle I was going to take on this? But one day we went to lunch. And that day I had had a particularly bad week in the Indian community where, you know, you go to the dinners and the only conversation is kids’ grades, kids’ class ranks, what extra-curriculars. And it was just … I was just thinking, wondering, “What if a child was failing in this community? How would those parents even sit through these conversations? And who would they turn to for support if that happened?” And I started … I went on this diatribe with him, it was at the Clay Pit Restaurant. And he just sat there and he looked at me for about thirty minutes as I went on and on passionately about this. He said, “You know, you just described a dissertation to me.” And that’s when my topic changed. And that’s the topic I finally ended up doing.

So my topic — of course, because I was a computer scientist, it would be absolutely blasphemous for me to do a qualitative study, right? It had to be quantitative. Any self-respecting computer science person only does quantitative studies and not qualitative. And that’s what I was going to do. Of course it was going to be a quantitative study. I was going to run the data. I was going to run these functions. And turns out my study was a qualitative study. {laughs}

My teaching philosophy is based a lot on nurturing. And — I know I’m going sound like … very different from many other professors. I have colleagues of mine who have these deadlines, who say a lab is due at midnight and if it comes at 12:01am, the student gets a zero. I have a lot of issues with that. My teaching philosophy is more based on allowing the students to explore, to nurture them, and to make sure that they actually understand and they understand the subject rather than just try to commit to a deadline. Because that doesn’t teach the students anything really. Yes, it teaches them to meet strict deadlines. But we also know that even in industry, deadlines are not like that. If a build is due at midnight and if it comes in five past midnight, that doesn’t mean the person gets fired. It just doesn’t work that way. Things happen in people’s lives.

I also try to form a sense of community in the class, whether it’s an online class, because I feel that if they have a sense of community, they are more likely to last in the class. I see many of my colleagues — not many, some, very few of my colleagues — who will refer to students’ questions as “stupid questions” and I take objection to that. And I tell my students, “The only stupid question is the one that’s never asked.” Because, having been a student myself, I know what it’s like. I know it’s hard to ask questions sometimes, but if you don’t ask the questions, you can never know the answers.

Well, you know, I did face challenges from some of the older faculty members when I started. For a long time I was the youngest person in the department and not only that, I was female. I wore a skirt, you know? So that was a problem … that turned out to be a challenge with some faculty members. Initially, when I first used to face those challenges, I would back off. But for the past few years I’ve learned to hold my own and have an equal argument on an equal footing. And I think that whole perspective has come in from being involved in these outside organizations. I think if I had stayed closed, just within Austin Community College, I don’t think I would have had that confidence to face some of those challenges. So, that was … that’s been a challenge.

Now that I’m leaving the college, that has come back to me in the form of so many different people — not from my department, but from other departments within the college and other areas within the college — who have been writing to me or calling me or personally coming to me and telling me how passionate I was about everything I did and how they really enjoyed working with me and how they’re going to miss me. [Interviewer: What do you think the source of that passion is?] I think a lot of it has to do with, again, that whole thing of me being competitive with myself, wanting to do the best I can possibly do, and not giving somebody an opportunity to point a finger at me and say, “You didn’t do what you were supposed to do.” That’s something my mother always told me. “Never give someone an opportunity to point a finger at you.”

[Interviewer: If I asked you for advice to a young person just getting ready to start on a computing career, what advice would you provide?] I would tell them to keep their passion and I would give them the same advice Dr. Sharpe gave me, is don’t be too hard on yourself. Allow yourself to explore. And if you fail along the way, it’s okay. It’s part of the process. It’s part of the process, you know? Because only … I failed. I failed in my first course. But that didn’t stop me. And keep the passion. Explore. Computer science is a vast field. It’s not just one narrow, focused, narrowly focused road. Find within computer science where your passion is. Do you want to go into pure development? Do you want to go into computer science education? Where do you want to be? And what is your ultimate goal? Find that. What do you want to do with this?

[E]xpect a gender bias when you go in. Expect to have to speak louder when you’re in a group to make yourself heard. Expect to have to say the same thing three times. And you will come out on top at the end.